Minnesota Now: Oct. 1, 2024

[MUSIC PLAYING] CATHY WURZER: It's Minnesota Now. I'm Cathy Wurzer. Vice Presidential candidates Tim Walz and JD Vance face off in New York tonight on a national stage for the first time and probably the last time. We'll get the latest from our politics team at the scene ahead of tonight's debate on CBS.

Minnesotans have had a while to get to know Tim Walz. But in Ohio, JD Vance's political career is relatively new. We'll hear from a reporter in his home state about his political reputation there. 48 years ago, another Minnesotan VP candidate was taking the stage for his very first debate, some of which was memorable. We'll travel back in time to Walter Mondale's 1976 debate. Plus, did you know Minnesota is home to one of the largest jigsaw puzzle competitions in the world? We'll learn all about it right after the news.

LAKSHMI SINGH: Live from NPR News in Washington, I'm Lakshmi Singh. Booms over Tel Aviv as seen in a CNN broadcast. The Israeli military saying that Iran has launched a missile attack on Israeli soil. The Israeli military is ordering civilians to head to bomb shelters. NPR'S Daniel Estrin has this report from Tel Aviv.

DANIEL ESTRIN: Air raid sirens are wailing across Israel, and the military has ordered civilians across the country to enter protected shelters. Loud booms were heard in Tel Aviv, and orbs of light streaked through the sky. The Israeli military warned civilians that booms could be from Israeli interceptions of the rockets or explosions.

The attack comes as Israel has launched a ground offensive in South Lebanon against the Iran backed Hezbollah. Meanwhile, Israeli police say two gunmen killed at least four civilians in the Jaffa district of Tel Aviv. Daniel Estrin, NPR News, Tel Aviv.

LAKSHMI SINGH: The White House says President Biden convened a meeting this morning with Vice President Harris and their national security team to review how the US would help Israel in the event of a ballistic missile strike from Iran. The briefing also went over plans to protect US personnel in the region.

Unionized dock workers in Houston and other ports from Texas to Maine are on strike. Picket lines formed just after midnight when the contract between the Dock Workers Union and the ocean carriers and port operators expired. Here's NPR'S Andrea Hsu.

ANDREA HSU: In normal times, the 14 ports where workers are now on strike handle well over a million shipping containers a month, carrying all sorts of goods coming in and headed out of the country. Auto components, paper, pharmaceuticals, wine and spirits. While analysts say a strike lasting a couple days may not have too big an economic impact, it could quickly turn costly.

An estimated $2 billion worth of trade flows through the affected ports daily. Ships already en route to the East Coast and Gulf Coast will have to wait offshore until the strike is over. That could quickly create a traffic jam that will take days to resolve. Andrea Hsu, NPR News.

LAKSHMI SINGH: Mexico is set to inaugurate a new president this hour, Claudia Sheinbaum. Here's NPR'S Carrie Kahn.

CARRIE KAHN: Sheinbaum is a 62-year-old environmental scientist who left academia for a political trajectory that took her from a local mayor to running Mexico City to winning the presidency with nearly 60% of the vote. She shares outgoing President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador's leftist ethos by putting Mexico's poor first.

She's pledged to continue cash transfers credited with lifting five million people out of poverty and to keep revamping Mexico's judiciary and maintaining an austere federal budget. While Lopez Obrador's folksy everyday man persona made him widely popular, many supporters worry Sheinbaum is less charismatic, more pragmatic style will limit her success in Mexico's polarized politics.

LAKSHMI SINGH: It's NPR News.

CREW: Support for NPR comes from NPR stations. Other contributors include Bank of America, offering access to resources and digital tools designed to help local to global companies make moves for their businesses. Learn more at bankofamerica.com/bankingforbusiness.

CATHY WURZER: Around Minnesota right now, skies are bright. It's cooler. Highs today will be in the 60s. At noon in International Falls, there's some light rain. It's 53. It's 54 in Moose Lake. Now outside the midway Cafe in Canby Minnesota, it's 62. I'm Cathy Wurzer with Minnesota news headlines.

A shortage of doctors will mean cutbacks in services at the Mayo Health System's Fairmont Hospital. By March of next year, the hospital will stop doing surgeries and other procedures and inpatient obstetric care, including the delivery of babies. Starting

Today, a new state law goes into effect where a health care provider can't deny medically necessary treatment just because a patient has outstanding medical debt. And for those who do have medical debt, collection agencies also have new restrictions on how they can collect the money.

From drought last year to flooding this spring and summer, now back to drought again. Many Minnesota trees and shrubs are struggling with that weather whiplash. There's little, if any, rain in the forecast over the next week. Where it's feasible, it may be a good time to water trees and shrubs in these next few weeks before winter. Lee Freilich is the director of the U of M's Center for Forest Ecology.

LEE FREILICH: If you have trees that look dry, the leaves are wilted, they're shedding their leaves earlier than usual, put the sprinkler out and saturate at least the top foot of soil a couple of times prior to winter. Hopefully, we'll get some rainfall at some point.

CATHY WURZER: Freilich says two to three inches of rainfall this month would go a long way toward helping Minnesota trees. If that does not happen, watering trees will become even more important.

Vice Presidential candidates Tim Walz and JD Vance are in New York preparing for their first and probably last debate tonight. The debate will be held at the CBS Broadcast Center in Midtown Manhattan in a controlled studio setting, no live audience, no fact checking from the CBS moderators. The two relatively little known politicians will introduce themselves to the country and try to avoid any slip ups on the big stage. Dana Ferguson is in New York. She joins us right now. How's the trip so far?

DANA FERGUSON: So far, so good, Cathy. Can you hear some of the folks honking out there?

CATHY WURZER: A little bit. So tell me what's happening outside the studios. Anything at this point?

DANA FERGUSON: Yeah. Near the CBS Broadcast Center-- that's where the debate is going to be held-- there are some barricades going up and television reporters starting to position themselves for their preview live spots ahead of the debate tonight. Walz and Vance are in New York. In fact, we saw Vance's motorcade heading to the area where he was rehearsing last night, purely by coincidence. And as we've mentioned, they'll face off tonight at 8:00 PM Central time.

CATHY WURZER: So let's talk about the stakes here. What are Tim Walz and JD Vance hoping to convey to audiences tonight?

DANA FERGUSON: Yeah. Both Walz and Vance are hoping to be the messengers for their running mates and communicate to the country why their side of the ticket could produce a better outcome for voters. So for Walz, he'll be promoting what Harris has labeled as an opportunity economy, which is how they describe their proposals to boost the middle class. He'll also try to show that Harris is the candidate focused on helping people live their lives well, not just a hold over from the Biden years.

Vance is out to echo Donald Trump's message that the nation is adrift and could benefit from another Trump term. He's likely to point out how much inflation has hurt Americans and also talk about the migrant crisis. But the VP candidates will also both have to account for their own track records and the policy stances they've held.

CATHY WURZER: And of course, the governor has a longer track record being in office for, what, some 20 years, first in Congress and then as governor. So I wonder, could you dive in a little more to the arguments that both candidates hope to make? I mean, this is clearly a high stakes situation. And in a sense, they're delivering closing remarks for the campaigns. So how do they make their case effectively, do you think?

DANA FERGUSON: Sure. I spoke with Senator Amy Klobuchar this morning. She's a surrogate for the Harris-Walz campaign, and she'll also be in the spin room tonight, along with Arizona Senator Mark Kelly, Democratic governors and Democratic party leaders. The spin room is where the campaigns assess the performance of the candidates and try to make the case that their candidate did well out there.

Senator Klobuchar hasn't been involved in the governor's debate prep, but she says she expects to hear Walz really contrast himself as a former teacher, a National Guard member, with Vance, who is an attorney. She says Walz should also focus on Vance's prior support for a federal abortion ban and highlight Democrats' commitment to cementing access to reproductive health care.

AMY KLOBUCHAR: I think using that opportunity to show people who he is and effectively making the case to Americans that the Harris-Walz ticket is going to stand up for their freedoms, stand up for reproductive rights, and you got on the other side a vice presidential candidate that voted against protecting IVF and a presidential candidate that said he was probably the one responsible for overturning Roe v. Wade.

CATHY WURZER: So as I mentioned, Dana, the governor has a long track record in office, a longer one to scrutinize. How might JD Vance poke, then, at Walz's record?

DANA FERGUSON: Yeah. It's likely that Vance is going to push on some of those areas that he views as too liberal, looking at a lot of the legal protections that were passed in Minnesota around abortion and gender affirming care, new requirements for public schools to carry period products in the bathrooms.

And he's also likely to bring up the governor's handling of the riots of riots in Minneapolis back in 2020 following George Floyd's murder. He could also point out the $250 million nutrition aid fraud committed by the nonprofit Feeding our Future.

And just a reminder, that happened during the governor's watch back during the pandemic. Republicans held a debate preview call yesterday, and Minnesota Representative Tom Emmer, who has played Walz in Vance debate prep, lit into his home state governor and called him a liar and a poor leader.

TOM EMMER: And while Walz will likely lean on his folksy demeanor to try and pivot away from their radical record on the debate stage tomorrow night, JD won't let him get away with it. From the border to the economy to American leadership on the world stage, President Trump has delivered once before, and he's ready to do it again with JD by his side.

CATHY WURZER: Say, Dana, I'm wondering. Could you talk about the Vance and Walz favorability ratings that we saw in the recent Minnesota poll and where they could maybe gain some ground here in this debate?

DANA FERGUSON: Sure So public opinion of Walz and Vance is lower than it is for Harris and Trump. That's to say that a lot of people don't know them yet or don't have a strong opinion. So VP candidates have a chance here to build up their approval with voters or, if things go poorly, to fall in approval ratings.

Before the debate, national polls have shown that Vance is underwater with voters in terms of favorability, while voters view Walz slightly more favorably than unfavorably. He also is coming into the contest with many voters still sort of up in the air about him.

CATHY WURZER: Let's talk about the potential performance here tonight. I know you talked with candidates who have debated Tim Walz before and watched some tape of Vance's debates. What can we learn from how both of these guys have done in past performances?

DANA FERGUSON: Yeah. It was so interesting going back through both their past performances. And in talking to both Republicans and Democrats who've debated Walz during his runs for Congress and governor, they say he's affable and folksy on stage.

And that demeanor can make him likable to an audience, but also disarming to opponents. They also say that the freewheeling style can sometimes cause problems for the governor since it causes him to misspeak every now and then.

Vance has debate experience from the run up to his Senate election in Ohio. He's known for piercing comebacks, and he has a knack for turning any question into an opening to go on offense. But he also wears his frustration on his sleeve, and that can sometimes come off as evasive when he's presented with questions he doesn't like.

CATHY WURZER: You mentioned that Congressman Tom Emmer has been playing Walz in the preparation for JD Vance. What are some of the other preparations that have been going on for both campaigns?

DANA FERGUSON: Yeah. So Emmer has been working with Vance and pretending to be Governor Walz going into this debate today. Emmer said he even studied some of the governor's gestures and mannerisms to be an effective stand in on the opposite side. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg has played the role of Vance in Walz's debate prep, and I guess we'll see how it all plays out.

CATHY WURZER: I know you're going to be busy, so Dana, good luck.

DANA FERGUSON: Thank you so much, Cathy.

CATHY WURZER: That's MPR politics reporter Dana Ferguson, live from New York City. Now, if you want to listen, our special coverage will start back here in St. Paul, 7:30 tonight, with politics editor Brian Bakst and host Tom Crann. The debate begins at 8:00 PM online and on air at mprnews.org.

Now, 48 years ago this month, a different vice presidential candidate from Minnesota took the national stage for a debate. Walter Mondale, a 48-year-old US Senator from Minnesota, was running alongside newcomer Jimmy Carter, the former governor of Georgia.

Mondale's 1976 debate against Republican vice presidential nominee Bob Dole was the first time two vice presidential candidates met up for a live televised debate. It was a fiery political moment.

President Richard Nixon had resigned just two years earlier over the Watergate scandal, and Americans were disillusioned by the war in Vietnam. Part of Mondale and Dole's exchange left a mark on the rest of Bob Dole's career, and it came about an hour or so in. Let's listen.

JAMES HOGE: Gentlemen, we have about five minutes left for short questions and short answers. Each sequence from now on will consist only of the question, the answer, and the other candidate's response. We'll drop the further response. The first question is from Mr. Meyers to Senator Dole.

WALTER MEARS: Senator Dole, 10 days ago when Senator Mondale raised the issues of Watergate and the Nixon pardon, you called it the start of the campaign mudslinging. Two years ago when you were running for the Senate, you said that the pardon was prematurely granted, and that it was a mistake.

You were quoted by the Kansas City Times as saying, "You can't ignore our tradition of equal application of the law." Did you approve of the Nixon pardon when President Ford granted it? Do you approve of it now? And if the issue is fair game in your 1974 campaign in Kansas, why is it not an appropriate topic now?

BOB DOLE: Well, it is an appropriate topic, I guess. But it's not a very good issue any more than the war in Vietnam would be or World War II or World War I or the war in Korea, all Democrat wars, all in this century. I figured up the other day, if we added up the killed and wounded in Democrat wars in this century, it'd be about 1.6 million Americans, enough to fill the city of Detroit.

If we want to go back and rake that over and over and over, we can do that. I assume Senator Mondale doesn't want to do that. But it seems to me that the pardon of Richard Nixon is behind us. Watergate's behind us.

If we have this vision for America, and if we're really concerned about those people out there and their problems, yes, and their education and their jobs, we ought to be talking about that. I know it strikes a responsive chord for some to kick Richard Nixon around.

I don't know how long can keep that up. How much mileage is there in someone who's been kicked, whose wife suffered a serious stroke, who's been disgraced in office and stepped down from that office? And I think after two years and some months, that it's probably a dead issue. But let them play that game. That's the only game they know.

JAMES HOGE: Senator Mondale.

WALTER MONDALE: I think Senator Dole has richly earned his reputation as a hatchet man tonight by implying and stating that World War II and the Korean War were Democratic wars. Does he really mean to suggest to the American people that there was a partisan difference over our involvement in the war to fight Nazi Germany?

I don't think any reasonable American would accept that. Does he really mean to suggest that it was only partisanship that got us into the war in Korea? Does he really mean to forget that part of the record where Mr. Nixon and the Republican party wanted us to get involved earlier in the war in Vietnam?

And long after Mr. Nixon and the Republican party promised to finish the war in Vietnam, they kept urging us forward, and that, in fact, it was the Democratic Congress that passed the law ending the war in Vietnam and preventing a new war in Angola? Now, on Watergate, we're not charging-- and he knows IT-- his involvement in Watergate. What we're saying is that they defended Mr. Nixon up to the last.

CATHY WURZER: A little more context on that. Mondale mentioned that Bob Dole had earned his reputation as a hatchet man. Dole emerged on the national stage back then as Nixon's so-called hatchet man because Dole staunchly defended the president through the early stages of Watergate.

That first televised vice presidential debate occurred in October of 1976. Mondale and his running mate, Jimmy Carter, went on to defeat incumbent Gerald Ford in the presidential election that November.

Time for our Minnesota Music Minute. This is Paul Spring with a new single, "The Valley." Paul was raised in St. Cloud and now based in New York City. His album is out Friday, October the 4.

[PAUL SPRING, "THE VALLEY"]

(SINGING) I know why we started

I know how we began

Can't see where we're going

Happy where I am

Somewhat tall

Speaking freely

Fine with being a nobody

All the while

Thinking I'll see the valley

CATHY WURZER: It's 12:20 here on Minnesota Now from MPR News. I'm Cathy Wurzer. Here in Minnesota, voters on both sides of the aisle have had more time to get to know Governor Tim Walz than his opponent, JD Vance. Vance gained national recognition for his memoir Hillbilly Elegy back in 2016, but his political career is relatively new.

Vance was elected to the US Senate two years ago, thanks in part to the endorsement of former President Donald Trump. Our next guest, Sarah Donaldson, has been covering Vance since that election. She's a reporter for the Statehouse News Bureau in Ohio, and she's on the line. Sarah, thanks for taking time. I know you're really busy.

SARAH DONALDSON: Hey, thanks for having me, Cathy. It's good to be here.

CATHY WURZER: Thanks. Thank you. I appreciate it. I just watched some of the debate that Vance had against Democrat Tim Evans in that 2022 Senate race, and he's a pretty sharp, nimble debater. I know you covered that debate. What do you remember about it?

SARAH DONALDSON: I remember probably what you saw when he was debating former Representative Tim Ryan. It was always going to be, I think, an interesting race between the two of them.

But he is a sharp debater for someone who is young, for someone who does not have a lot of political experience in the way that obviously Governor Tim Walz has. I mean, Vance has that kind of Trump appeal to him, I think, in that he's kind of seen as an outsider. He's young, and he really has a pretty short political career to this point.

CATHY WURZER: Of course, fact checking claims made on the debate stage is pretty tough. Political reporters, of course, are set to debunk and give us some context of what the candidates will say. Are there topics that you and your news team are expecting might come up tonight that you'll need to do a little fact checking on?

SARAH DONALDSON: Absolutely. I think one of the biggest ones-- and this is something that came up during the presidential debate-- has been this conversation around a community in Ohio called Springfield. Springfield has kind of fed into the national Immigration debate because there's a very large population of legal Haitian immigrants in Springfield.

And Vance was one of the first people to call attention to Springfield, and he's called attention to some of the objectively agreed upon issues that a really big population influx has. There's a need for health care. There is a need for driving lessons for folks who are coming from Haiti and don't take the same driver's tests that we take in the United States.

But Vance has also called attention to unfounded rumors about these immigrants eating cats and geese. Local officials, the local Republican mayor, have said that's just not true. We don't have the evidence to back that. But Vance has called attention to those rumors.

And of course, his running mate, former President Donald Trump, brought up the rumors again during the presidential debate. So I imagine there's a chance that Springfield gets brought up tonight. And, of course, Vance has kind of backed off and then come back onto these rumors.

But we'll also be looking for how he talks about his former comments about former President Donald Trump. Vance was one Republican among many Republicans who was very much a never Trumper at one time. And of course, you see how that works out now, because he's Trump's running mate.

CATHY WURZER: What do you hear from voters in Ohio about that?

SARAH DONALDSON: I think the general consensus is-- at least, it's my understanding that Republicans who are going to vote for Trump, they don't really see much to it anymore because Trump has said he's forgiven Vance. Obviously, not only has Trump chosen Vance as his running mate in this election cycle, but Trump is really the big reason that Vance was elected to the Senate in the first place.

Although Vance ultimately beat Tim Ryan out for the Senate seat in the general election by several points, he was in a very crowded primary field in Ohio in 2022. I think there were seven other Republican candidates. And I was a college reporter at the time. I went to an event with a couple of voters and Vance before he had the Trump endorsement, and people in Ohio really didn't know much about Vance.

You say, obviously, that folks in Minnesota know Tim Walz better because he's been in office for a long time. People in Ohio know Vance a little bit more than maybe the rest of the country. But I think a lot of people in Ohio are still getting to know Vance. And his star has risen in great part because of Trump.

CATHY WURZER: He also, of course, wrote a best selling memoir about his upbringing in Ohio, in Appalachia. It was made into a movie. How does his personal story resonate with folks in your state?

SARAH DONALDSON: I definitely think it resonates with other white working class folks who are in Ohio. Of course, Ohio is no longer a swing state. Our state is very likely going to vote for Trump this presidential election. But I think the idea here is in him running with Trump, he is also speaking to those white working class voters that Trump has courted so effectively in other swing states like Pennsylvania, like Michigan.

And I think Vance's story is one that when he wrote Hillbilly Elegy, for a long time after, he was doing television hits and radio hits, and people were kind of calling him in some ways the voice of Appalachia. And now, of course, there has been almost a kind of counterculture among some Appalachians who say JD Vance doesn't speak for us.

He doesn't speak for our experience. But I think in some part, he definitely does speak to the experiences for some people living and working in the modern rural America.

CATHY WURZER: Say, I'm curious. What's Senator Vance like to cover as a reporter? He seems like he's open to taking questions from all reporters, national, local. What's your feel?

SARAH DONALDSON: He hasn't been in Ohio as much as folks-- I love accessibility when it comes to politicians and the ability to talk to them and ask them questions. I haven't had the opportunity to cover him face to face much since he's gone to the Senate. He is definitely a regular face on national media, I will say, though.

He definitely seems to be open to answering questions. That being said, he definitely has adopted a sort of combative tone to him, and I think you'll see that in the debate tonight, too. He's kind of a fighter, in his words, I think I would say.

CATHY WURZER: And our reporter Dana Ferguson, who's out in New York right now, says that he's known for these piercing comebacks, and he kind of turns any question into an opening to go on the offensive, so it should be interesting to watch here tonight. Say, I have to ask you about this because I'm sure you're really busy with this particular race. I see you got one of the most competitive and spendiest Senate races going on in Ohio. What's going on with that race? Why is it so close?

SARAH DONALDSON: Absolutely. In 2022, the race between Vance and Ryan was so closely watched because it was an opening. Former Republican Senator Rob Portman had left, and obviously, Democrats were trying to flip the seat. Now, Democrats are trying to retain Senator Sherrod Brown's seat. He's a long time Democrat in Ohio.

He's actually the only statewide elected Democrat in Ohio, which is pretty unheard of in this current time in Ohio, because we have Republicans otherwise. But they're trying to defend the seat against Bernie Moreno. He's a Republican. He's also Trump backed. I would say he's kind of trying to mimic the campaign in ways that Vance ran in Ohio, staying very close to Trump, staying on message with what Trump wants and what Trump likes.

So it'll definitely be a very expensive race, and it would be very, very challenging for Senator Sherrod Brown to pull this off and get reelected because, of course, Trump is on the ballot in Ohio. So it's just going to be about if he can get those margins. And there are those people who still vote a split ticket in 2024. They vote for Trump, and they vote for Sherrod Brown.

CATHY WURZER: All right. So, Sarah, it looks like you've got your hands full there when it comes to the Senate race and also what's happening tonight with the VP debate, so we wish you well. Thank you for taking the time.

SARAH DONALDSON: Thank you very much. It was so fun to talk.

CATHY WURZER: Sarah Donaldson is a reporter for the Statehouse News Bureau, which covers politics and government for public radio and television in Ohio. By the way, you can hear our special coverage of the debate starting at 8:00 tonight Central time, right here on the radio and online at mprnews.org.

CREW: Support comes from the Humphrey School of Public Affairs. Seats for the 2024 Distinguished Carlson Lecture featuring Dr. Anthony Fauci are full but may become available. You can check northrop.umn.edu for updates.

CATHY WURZER: Say, by the way, our five day fall member drive starts next Monday. It's a big deal for us. And can I encourage you to make an early gift? We want to hear from 500 listeners before the drive begins next Monday. So far, we've heard from 15 people. I think that's terrific. You want to become numbers 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20? You can take action right now and donate early at mprnews.org.

Say, I hope you'll stick around. Coming up later here on the program, we have a new climate law here in the state of Minnesota that requires all electricity in the state to come from carbon free sources by the year 2040. But what exactly carbon free means is a little up in the air. We're going to hear from a Sahan Journal reporter about that story in a couple of minutes. Right now, Jacob Eloy is standing by with a look at the news. Jacob?

JACOB ALOI: Thanks, Cathy. An attack comes as Israel claims it launched limited ground incursion into Lebanon. The Israeli military said that Iran has fired missiles at Israel, and air raid sirens have sounded across the country as residents are ordered to remain close to bomb shelters. This is a developing story, and we'll keep you updated as more information comes in. Some news outlets are also reporting a shooting in Tel Aviv that has killed four and left several injured.

As we've heard earlier this hour, Tim Walz and JD Vance will meet for their first and currently only vice presidential debate tonight. It may also be the last debate of both campaigns to argue their case before the election.

The debate in New York, hosted by CBS News, will give Vance and Walz a chance to make the case for their running mates. Vice presidential candidates and the lone debate they typically engage in have not historically had a huge impact on the presidential race, but this match-up could have an outsized impact, with polls showing Harris and Trump locked in a close contest.

In entertainment news, two Broadway veterans have passed away. Ken Page starred in Broadway's Cats and The Wiz and voiced the villain Oogie Boogie in the film The Nightmare Before Christmas. According to the LA Times, he died Monday at age 70.

And Gavin Creel, who won a Tony Award for a production of Hello, Dolly and was nominated for productions of Hair and the original Broadway production of Thoroughly Modern Millie, died Monday of a rare and aggressive form of cancer. Creel, also known for his advocacy of marriage equality, was 48.

And Cathy, former President Jimmy Carter has reached his 100th birthday. It is the first time an American president has lived a full century. The Democrat served as president from 1977 to 1981 and then worked for more than four decades leading the Carter Center, a non-governmental organization he and his wife, Rosalynn, co-founded in 1982.

Mrs. Carter died last year at age 96. The former President has been in home hospice care for 19 months in Plains, Georgia, where he was born on October 1, 1924. And as you know, his vice president was Minnesota's own Walter Mondale, who passed in 2021.

CATHY WURZER: Yes. And I hear that they are selling-- they've got tons of their famous peanut butter ice cream in Plains here today to celebrate. Thank you, Jacob. We appreciate it.

JACOB ALOI: Thank you.

CATHY WURZER: It is 12:32 here on this early Tuesday afternoon. Now, I mentioned the state climate law. It was passed last year, and it requires all electricity in the state to come from carbon free sources by the year 2040, but it's up to regulators to decide what exactly counts as carbon free.

The key question here is whether burning trash and timber for energy should be part of the mix. There might not be an answer until the end of next year after the Public Utilities Commission recently moved to delay the decision. Andrew Hazzard has been following this. He covers climate change and environmental justice for Sahan Journal, and he's on the line. Andrew, thanks for taking the time. How have you been?

ANDREW HAZZARD: I'm doing well. Thank you so much for having me.

CATHY WURZER: Good, good. I'm glad you're taking the time to do this. So let's help folks out here. How much of the state's electricity is generated by trash incinerators and wood biomass plants?

ANDREW HAZZARD: Right now, it's only about 2% of our total electricity generation. It is about 6% of what is currently considered renewable generation, but that is, of course, a different standard than being carbon free. So as this new 2040 law approaches, it has these benchmarks in it. By 2030, about 80% of our sources are supposed to come from carbon free sources. And so that's coming up soon, and right now, we're at about 55%. So even though it's a small amount of the overall electric grid, every point is going to count as these different utilities and the state in general tries to reach that legally mandated goal.

CATHY WURZER: Now, I'm no scientist here, but I know when trash or wood or anything else is burned, that releases carbon dioxide. So, gosh, how could that kind of energy be considered carbon free?

ANDREW HAZZARD: Well, that is indeed the question here. As you pointed out, burning is the key word. Combustion is the key word. And definitionally, it, of course, cannot be considered carbon free, which is where we get into this really long debate. There are utility companies, there are municipalities that have their own utilities.

There is the timber industry, the waste industry, all of these competing interests that are trying to say, well, hey, if you look at the total life cycle of some of these practices like, let's say, waste incineration, they say, well, waste incineration may be preferable to landfilling overall, and so this is actually a way to reduce our overall emissions rate from managing this trash.

And we're also making energy, so shouldn't you reward us somehow? Shouldn't you let us at least get a partial credit towards being carbon free? Let us kind of count. Otherwise, they're going to have to add new renewable sources or hydroelectric or nuclear or some kind of carbon free source to count towards that law.

But inherently, it really can't. And so what we're looking at here is the potential for some of these things to maybe be backed in as considered carbon neutral-- which many people who worked on this law and who passed this law are saying, carbon neutral is not carbon free, even if you could stretch out a definition for this to be carbon neutral.

So that's a tricky question, because logically, I don't really see a scenario in which it could be considered carbon free, but there's a lot of invested interest here that are trying to abstractly view this through the kaleidoscope and say, oh, yeah. This could count as carbon free. Please don't make us add any more infrastructure to meet this deadline.

CATHY WURZER: The one place that pops up in my mind when I think of-- we used to call it the garbage burner. It's now called the Hennepin County Energy Recovery Center. It's an incinerator, for folks who don't know, in downtown Minneapolis.

I'm wondering here. Lawmakers in that same clean energy law that created this deadline-- lawmakers made it so the incinerator in Minneapolis no longer counts as a renewable energy source. But the question here is, why do they single out the Hennepin County Center specifically? Just curious.

ANDREW HAZZARD: That's a great question, because we have seven incinerators here in the state. There's incinerators in Red Wing and Mankato and Rochester. The reason they singled out the Herc is because the Minneapolis delegation within the DFL is quite powerful. And there have been a lot of local politicians in the Twin Cities who have been opposed to the Herc for a very long time.

And so they have been trying for years to chip away at the Herc and say, hey, we don't want this here, and trying to put pressure on Hennepin County to get rid of this facility, to create a timeline for it to be closed down. And so this was a huge one here right in the renewable energy law and saying, hey, this can't count as renewable energy anymore.

And of course, that definition was always problematic among scientists, among environmentalists, saying that's not renewable energy in general. But that's how they're classified in the state today. They singled out the Herc to put pressure on Hennepin County. They did a similar thing in the bonding bill where they stipulated, oh, Hennepin County, you can have $25 million for a new piece of composting organics infrastructure if you put a timeline on closing down the Herc.

And so we've seen this sort of jurisdictional showdown, really, where other entities that don't actually own the Herc, which is owned by Hennepin County, putting pressure on them to say, hey, you should close this. And of course, that's caused quite a bit of tension.

CATHY WURZER: But I remember, gosh, has it been more than a year, I think, since Hennepin County, the commissioners, asked staff to come up with a plan to close the Herc? And I don't know. Where are those plans?

ANDREW HAZZARD: Well, that's another great question. So, yes, it was last October. That's a great memory. Basically, they said, staff, you need to come up with some plans to get us out of the Herc sometime between 2028 and 2040. So that's a wide window, right?

Now, what Hennepin County staff did in early part of this year was come back with-- not exactly a plan. I guess I would not call it a plan to close the Herc. They came back with a bunch of requirements or things that they believe they need to see in place to get to a point where they can close down the Herc.

The Herc right now manages about 45% of all the waste generated in Hennepin County. That's the largest county in the state, the most populous county in the state, so it's an important part of managing the huge amount of trash that we all generate every year. But all they really did was create a list of state laws that they would like to see.

One of them did pass as an important packaging law, asking for cities to consider what their role in this could be, asking for potential more money to put sorting facilities in there to take out recyclable material or organic material that could be composted instead of going to a trash burner.

But the short story is that they never really committed to when in that 12 years they are going to close the Herc or developed a strong plan to get there.

And recently, Hennepin County leaders came to the city of Minneapolis and said, hey, we want you to come up with your own plan for what you would do with your trash-- because 75% of the trash burned in the Herc comes from Minneapolis residents and businesses-- before we can commit to getting this timeline.

So it's all being punted around. It's all being sort of deflected to other jurisdictions and whatnot. And really, the momentum on that, which seemed pretty substantial last year, has sort of waned and stagnated a bit, I think.

CATHY WURZER: Wow. Interesting. Thanks for the update, and thanks for the conversation, Andrew.

ANDREW HAZZARD: Thank you so much for having me.

CATHY WURZER: Andrew Hazzard is an environmental reporter for Sahan Journal.

CREW: Programming supported by the Bush Foundation. Now accepting applications for the Bush Fellowship, investing in leaders and their capacity to do more good. 30 fellows will be selected and awarded. Accepting applications through October 15. Visit bushfoundation.org.

CREW: Programming is supported by The Original Mattress Factory. Employee owned and operated. Mattresses and box springs are hand-built in its Maplewood, Minnesota, factory and sold directly to the customer at Original Mattress showrooms throughout the region. originalmattress.com.

CATHY WURZER: The Lynx play game two of the semifinals tonight at 8:30, Target Center, against the Connecticut Sun. And there is one fan who has been to every single home game since 2016. You may have seen her. Christina McCollum is known for always crocheting at the games, but next year, Target Center may not allow it. Digital producer Sam Stroozas talked with McCollum before game 1 of the semifinals.

SAM STROOZAS: Well, thanks so much for talking with me, Christina. First up, I just wanted you to walk me through your Minnesota Lynx story.

CHRISTINA MCCOLLUM: So I am originally from Minnesota, but I took a tour of the country. When I was back here in 2013, I had my kiddo with me, and we went to our first Minnesota Lynx game. That was a lot of fun. It was during the 2013 playoffs. I think it was game 1. I enjoyed it.

It was my dad's passion. He was a season ticket holder. He was at all of the games. And it wasn't until he started having some medical issues that he would miss games. But if he could be there, he sure was there.

When he passed away in 2016, my husband and kid came to Minnesota, and we made the decision at that point to move to Minnesota. So I reached out to my dad's ticket rep, and I said, hey, for the 2017 season, we'll take over his seat.

SAM STROOZAS: Was your family always into basketball?

CHRISTINA MCCOLLUM: It wasn't really until my husband and I started watching the Golden State Warriors. We started watching their games. And being that we were in the Bay area, we went to a couple of games. We started having a lot more passion for basketball.

And then my dad kind of gotten into basketball, had gotten into the Lynx because it was a less expensive way for him to enjoy something and get out and do something when he moved back to Minnesota. I really took it on because I wanted to have the ability of these women to be able to play professional sports and to do that.

If that's your dream, you can do it. Because when I was growing up, we didn't have that opportunity, not that I was a basketball player or anything. But I was out of college before that became a reality. And it was also a way for me to stay connected to my daddy.

SAM STROOZAS: So you crochet at every game. Do you always have projects with you?

CHRISTINA MCCOLLUM: So I pretty much always have something with me for my hands to do. It's really been just something I've done. It's just something I always do. I always have knitting with me. And so if there's something that I just need to listen to or watch, I keep my hands busy.

SAM STROOZAS: How do people react when they see you crocheting?

CHRISTINA MCCOLLUM: The lovely ladies at the entrance that gives out the tickets, she's always asking me, what am I making? She wants to see what I'm doing. There's some people that are talking to me about it.

The only time that I really had a problem-- there was one game that I couldn't do anything because I had a project that was-- knitting needles that were kind of large. And the security person freaked out about it, and he made me put them back in my car.

SAM STROOZAS: So I know you said at a recent game you were told to stop crocheting, and you talked about it with Karlie Knox, the president of operations. What exactly happened?

CHRISTINA MCCOLLUM: That was right before the Olympic break. And so when I came back from Olympic break, after that, we came back to a game. I talked to Karlie, and she said, you're OK for the rest of the year. You're fine. They're going to revisit it in the offseason.

SAM STROOZAS: Are you worried you're aren't going to be able to crochet next year?

CHRISTINA MCCOLLUM: I am concerned for sure. I'll be very upset. I already have a friend, actually, who-- she, I don't believe, crochets. She just knits. And she actually canceled her season tickets because they disallowed knitting needles in Target Center.

SAM STROOZAS: Well, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me, and I will see you at the game.

CHRISTINA MCCOLLUM: All right. Great. Thanks.

CATHY WURZER: That was our digital producer Sam Stroozas talking with Christina McCollum. The Lynx, again, play game 2 of the semifinals tonight, 8:30, against the Connecticut Sun at Target Center.

Tickets went live today for one of the largest jigsaw puzzling competitions in the world, and it's right here in St. Paul at the Winter Carnival. Someone you will definitely see there is Minnesotan Sarah Schuler, and she actually just got back from the World Jigsaw puzzle competition in Spain. And she's on the line right now to take us inside the world of puzzling. Sarah, thank you for the time.

SARAH SCHULER: Thank you for having me.

CATHY WURZER: I've got to say, Sarah, I always thought that working jigsaw puzzles was supposed to be relaxing, but I didn't realize that there are people like yourself who compete, and you're incredibly good and fast at it. Walk me through how this happened to you.

SARAH SCHULER: It's kind of a weird thing. People don't really know about it. I feel like a lot of Minnesota does puzzle, but not as many people do competitive jigsaw puzzling. So definitely been on a mission to bring that to everyone across the state.

CATHY WURZER: I did not know that it was a thing. So I understand that you were competing with 1,000 other puzzlers from around the world. What was that like?

SARAH SCHULER: Yeah, it is electric. I know that sounds kind of wild when it's coming down to jigsaw puzzling, but to be in a room with 1,000 other people that have such a passion and love for the same hobby that you do is just such an amazing feeling, and getting to know people all across the world is so cool.

We're all linked by this one amazing hobby that anyone can really get into, and it's just such a great, welcoming community. So it's always really great when we all get together at Worlds.

CATHY WURZER: I know there are different categories. Did you make it into the finals?

SARAH SCHULER: I did. So I made it in all three categories. There are team competitions, which is a team of up to four people, pairs, which is just two people working on a puzzle, and then individuals, which is just yourself. So I was lucky enough to make it to finals in all three divisions. And there are a lot of really good puzzlers out there, so it's not easy.

CATHY WURZER: So give me a sense as to how fast you can go when you're really clicking.

SARAH SCHULER: Yeah. So I typically finish a 500 piece puzzle between 45 minutes to an hour. The fastest people in the world can finish it in 26 minutes.

CATHY WURZER: What?

SARAH SCHULER: I am nowhere near there yet. I think my best time is about 34 minutes. Yeah. It's absolutely bonkers.

CATHY WURZER: My gosh. I can't even conceive of it. I can't even conceive. All right. Well, then there's got to be some sort of a plan or a strategy, right? So how do you tackle a puzzle as a team?

SARAH SCHULER: Yeah. So as a team, really, the most important thing is communication. You can definitely go into it with a plan. But in a jigsaw puzzle competition, typically, you don't get to see the image until they do 5, 4, 3, 2 1, go.

So you can't really plan ahead, like if it's an image with tigers on it. I'm going to take the tigers. I'm going to take the water. I'm going to take these purple flowers. You can't really plan that ahead of time because you get to see the image for the first time when you open that box.

So with the teams and communication, it is so important to just let people know what you're working on. So my team, we have someone that we have do the edge pieces. She's pretty much dedicated to doing that from the beginning.

And then the rest of us just call out. If we're seeing a pink carriage and a white horse, we'll say, I'm going to take all these white pieces and put together the horse. I'm going to take the sky pieces. And you just have to let everyone know what you're working on.

CATHY WURZER: It's important to be a good edger. I will say that.

SARAH SCHULER: Yeah, for sure. For sure. The edge is very important. But sometimes, we don't do it first. So as you practice and do more puzzles, you'll kind of learn when it's quicker to do the edge last.

CATHY WURZER: My gosh. All right.

SARAH SCHULER: So many strategies.

CATHY WURZER: I was going to say. And then you got to go fast.

SARAH SCHULER: You do.

CATHY WURZER: Again, I cannot even conceive of doing a puzzle in 35, 40 minutes, or even an hour.

SARAH SCHULER: Yeah. They're incredible. It's so fun to watch.

CATHY WURZER: Do you have an eye, then? It's almost like you develop, I would think, some kind of an eye or a sense of where you're going larger picture to go fast.

SARAH SCHULER: Yeah. And I feel like a lot of people have different methods and how their brains work. It's very interesting, and I'm sure that someone should be out there doing a study on it, because I'm sure there's something to be learned from it. But some people will take a long time and look at the box image and kind of sear that into their brain so they don't have to keep looking at the box.

Some people never look at the box. Or they just quickly look at it once and go, OK. I get the idea. Some people hold up the piece to the box and find exactly where it goes and puts it down in the puzzle. So lots of different strategies and ways of looking at things.

CATHY WURZER: I have a group of older friends who-- we call them the Puzzle Babes. And they would on vacation, take a puzzle, and work on it. And it was cutthroat, actually. And I never participated because it was just too much. And I think when you think of a puzzler, you think of someone who might be older, but you're in your 20s. So how did you get into competitive puzzling?

SARAH SCHULER: Yeah. So as you were talking about earlier, Winter Carnival is the largest puzzle competition in the country. It used to be a little bit bigger than Worlds. I think this year, it might be just up there at the same with a couple thousand people going.

But I started going to that to watch my mom and my uncle compete on a team. And eventually, one of their team members left their team, and they put me in when I was maybe like 12, 13, and that was my first time doing a puzzle contest. And I just fell in love with it. And still to this day now, I'm doing puzzles 15 years later.

CATHY WURZER: How do you practice for a competition?

SARAH SCHULER: Yeah. So typically, you know what the brand and the piece count is going to be. And once you know that, you definitely just want to stock up on those kinds of puzzles. So for the Worlds competition, it's Ravensburger 500 piece puzzles, which are pretty popular in the United States.

So if you're at your local thrift store or a garage sale, I just kind of picked up every single 500 piece Ravensburger puzzle that I saw if I had not already done it. And then I just do them. So I set up my space just like there will be at the competition. So I have a folding table, a tablecloth, a little mat to put my puzzle on, and then just practice as many as you possibly can in as many styles.

Try out different strategies. Start with border last. Let's start with border first. Do the sky first. Do the sky last. Figure out what works for you because it's totally different for every person and their brain.

CATHY WURZER: What kind of puzzles give you fits where you look and you think, my gosh, what is with this?

SARAH SCHULER: Yeah. So the traditional puzzle images that everyone kind of thinks of when they think of a jigsaw puzzle. So photographs of a European landscape or Copenhagen-- which was so funny because the first puzzle I opened up at Worlds for the individual qualifying rounds was a lovely washed out photo of Copenhagen.

So terribly difficult. I was in shock. I just wanted to die. But I made it through. I did it, I think, in under an hour. It may be the worst ones I do, but I can still do them pretty fast.

CATHY WURZER: I'd love to watch you. And I guess I will, right? You're going to be part of a documentary.

SARAH SCHULER: Yes. There is a documentary coming out in quite a few years from now, but they just started working on it. It's puzzle people documentary, so it's following quite a few different puzzlers in different categories. So there's a person that streams on Twitch.

And then I host and compete in competitions, so they're just following a few different puzzlers and seeing how it affects mental health. Usually, it's a positive correlation. I mean, sometimes, it's frustrating when you're trying to go fast, but definitely is a mindful activity. And just kind of following the lives of a few different people in the puzzle community.

CATHY WURZER: I'm assuming because we have long winters, we must be the land of 10,000 puzzlers.

SARAH SCHULER: Oh, for sure.

CATHY WURZER: So if someone wants to try this, what would you suggest they do?

SARAH SCHULER: Yeah. Just definitely get out there and try it out. I know it can kind of seem daunting to try to do a 500 piece puzzle in 30 minutes. You do not have to be that fast.

I host jigsaw puzzle competitions almost every single night around the Twin Cities area. So if you're around, they're at mostly breweries. And you can get a team of four, or you in a pair, and you can work with your friends on a puzzle and enjoy a beer or another beverage and just hang out and have fun and try out the new sport.

CATHY WURZER: That sounds like fun. I mean, there's nothing wrong with an adult beverage and a puzzle. That does sound like a good time.

SARAH SCHULER: It's the best kind of night.

CATHY WURZER: Sarah, best of luck to you. I wish you well, and I'm looking forward to this documentary.

SARAH SCHULER: Yes, me, too. Thank you so much.

CATHY WURZER: Sarah Schuler is a competitive jigsaw puzzler. You can find her on social media, by the way, at Sarah Does Puzzles. Wow. I just went to school, and I was taught about competitive jigsaw puzzling. I had no idea that it existed, for goodness sakes.

Wow. You learn a lot here on this program. In case you missed something, we've got that podcast. You can check out our podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We appreciate you listening to Minnesota Now here on MPR News.