Tim O’Brien’s friend, biographer on the Minnesota-raised writer’s ‘life and art’

NINA MOINI: Well, if you've spent much time in Minnesota or a high school English class, chances are you've heard of Tim O'Brien. Maybe we've even read his award-winning Vietnam War short story collection called The Things They Carried. Well, there's a new book out about O'Brien's life, including his childhood in Worthington and early adulthood at Macalester College. The biography is called Peace is a Shy Thing. And its author, Alex Vernon, a professor at Hendrix College, is here to talk with us about it. Thank you for being here, Alex.

ALEX VERNON: Thank you for having me, Nina. This is a pleasure.

NINA MOINI: Well, I want to start out by talking about, the title of your book is striking. People might think it's a reference to war, but would you talk a little bit about choosing that title and what it means?

ALEX VERNON: Sure. "Peace is a shy thing" or "peace is shy." These are similar quotations that O'Brien has used in his writing and his interviews. And really, as he describes, he was never suited to be a soldier. And what he cares about is peace. And he would much rather-- people'd call him a war writer or Vietnam War writer. He would much rather be considered a peace writer.

And that notion of "peace is a shy thing" is to contrast to war. Because war, as he says, is loud and dramatic and in your face. But peace isn't. And you don't really notice peace when you're walking down the street and you're listening to the leaves in the fall. You don't think, I'm at peace. But you are. And that shyness of peace is really what he wants his writing to be about, even though it's explicitly about war often.

NINA MOINI: Yeah. How do you think he was able to balance that? What effect did war have on his writing?

ALEX VERNON: Everything. So when he was growing up in Southern Minnesota, he always imagined being an author. But he just thought, that's never going to happen. That's a total pipe dream. And what he says is, he did not become a war until Vietnam. The Vietnam made him a writer when the war collided with his life. And what he means by that is both just the experience itself-- so, for example, there was a moment in his life when he and several of his company mates just fired, and the result was the death of a 10-, 11-year-old Vietnamese girl. He doesn't know if his bullet hit her, but he lives with that image to this day.

So it's both what happened in the war but also, he was against the war, and yet, he allowed himself to be drafted. And that, to him, is a moral failing that he has struggled with his whole life. So very much, the war just gave a moral weight and a necessity for his writing to come to be in the first place.

NINA MOINI: Yeah. And The Things They Carried is fiction. But do you think it kind of aligned with O'Brien's own experience in Vietnam? Was he trying to do that?

ALEX VERNON: It's interesting. So his first book was actually a nonfiction memoir about the war, If I Die in a Combat Zone, written in 1973 before the war was actually over-- very similar to The Things They Carried in being episodic throughout. And so he wrote that first memoir in '73. Then The Things They Carried comes out in 1990. And even though it's fiction, he has said that fictional book expresses his experience in Vietnam better than the memoir did.

Because the memoir, even though it is expressing emotion, it is to some degree expressing, this is what happened. But with the fiction, he can do what he thinks of as story truth, which can actually, for him, express truths more real than nonfiction can.

NINA MOINI: Yeah. And I think a lot of people will wonder, what makes you want to write a biography about somebody? And I understand you actually became friends with Tim O'Brien or friendly with him. Can you tell me about what led to your wanting to write this?

ALEX VERNON: Yeah. He and I have known each other for about 20 years, 22 years or so, and just became friends over the years. He has always said he did not want a biography written of him, just because, who would? Right?

NINA MOINI: [LAUGHS]

ALEX VERNON: But at some point a few years ago, he realized a biography about him was going to be written someday. And he wanted to have some input into that, and he wanted to have some input into who wrote it. So he actually asked me to write the book. I did not approach him about it at all. And just given his stature and given how much his work has meant to me in my life, it was a no-brainer for me to write this book.

NINA MOINI: Yeah, I bet that's an honor to have someone approach you and say, will you write my life story? That's pretty amazing.

ALEX VERNON: Absolutely. And I'll add to that-- my publisher asked if I could put the word "authorized" on the cover, and I resisted. And that's because the word "authorized" to me means that O'Brien would have read it and approved. He has not read a single page. He opened himself to interviews and showed me material and connected me with friends and family, but he has not read a single page. And so it has the integrity of being my book, not me doing what he wanted me to do, if that makes sense.

NINA MOINI: Yeah, that totally makes sense. And so you interviewed tons of people who were in O'Brien's life. How did you know who to talk to?

ALEX VERNON: Various ways because he was a part of the process. He gave me a list of names. Plus, I just read his work and read around and just talked to people who recommended other people. So just over time, a large list of names grew.

NINA MOINI: And was there anyone that you had a memorable time with?

ALEX VERNON: Gosh, so many. I talked to fellow writers. I talked to friends and family, to former girlfriends, romantic partners. I talked to editors. I talked to Oliver Stone briefly, Dan Fogelman-- people know from This Is Us.

His best friend is also a Minnesotan. Eric Hanson was raised in Tyler, Minnesota. And they went to basic training together and then went to Vietnam separately. And then they just wrote letters back and forth. And Hanson is kind of a packrat. And he kept, as far as I know, all-- or certainly, a large-- a healthy portion of the letters Tim wrote him from Vietnam, for the next couple of decades, about Vietnam, about Tim's writing process. And so I got to use those letters and talk to Hanson.

There's so many people that I was able to talk to. I talked to Tim's translator when he traveled back to Vietnam in 1994. I was able to talk to her about that experience. So it was just amazing. And I would just-- a shout-out to all those people. They were so kind and generous with their time and remarks that I'm forever in their debt.

NINA MOINI: Yeah, that's amazing. And I think that-- it's so nice to hear you say, I talked to the ex-girlfriend, and I talked to this person. Because while war and the Vietnam War was a big part of the work and is a big part of the work, were there other themes about O'Brien's life that stand out to you?

ALEX VERNON: There's so many. He talks about people being essentially mysteries to one another, even your spouse of 60 years whom you know better than anyone. Ultimately, they are mysteries to you. And the only thing about life is its overwhelming ambiguity, moral ambiguity or whatever. And I think in researching-- I started this book, and I knew the basics, but most of this book is from the research.

And one of the things that struck me too is just how well O'Brien's life tracked with history. So for me, the book is a biography of O'Brien, but it's also kind of a history book as well.

NINA MOINI: Cool. And O'Brien only lived in Minnesota, I understand, until about his early 20s, but it seems like it really had a big impact. Why do you think that is?

ALEX VERNON: It's a good question. I think, actually, Ernest Hemingway, who's from Oak Park, Illinois, famously never wrote about his hometown as he traveled the world. But O'Brien's books continue to return to Minnesota. Just a general recognition where one's from-- and we talk about, one's fetal environment has as much to do with who one becomes as one's DNA. He was in Minnesota until he graduated from college. And he recognizes that.

And to bring it back to the war too, one of the things that was intriguing-- well, confounding-- to him, he was middle class, rural, small-town Minnesota. He was raised to be a nice boy, a polite kid. You don't hit people. You don't hate people. And then he was sent to a war where he was told to hate and kill people by the very people back home who were telling him not to do those things. And so I think that fundamental contradiction about where he's from and who he has persisted.

NINA MOINI: Yeah. I think one other theme too that you've talked about is just honesty. Is that part of the reason that you think that his writing resonates and has for so long? Or why do you think? Some people just really stand the test of time.

ALEX VERNON: I think so. Every reader who enjoys O'Brien is going to have their own reasons for it. He is very honest with himself and with the country. And there's no bluster in his writing. Even though he's writing about war, there's no chest thumping at all. It's about vulnerability, and it's about responsibility and even kind of confessional too.

And I think, to me, for example, journalism, to a large degree, it's sort of always about, you weren't here, so I'm going to tell you about this. And war literature often has that same approach to it. And I think Tim has worked really, really hard to make his war fiction immersive, to put you as much as he can to put you in the boots of those people too and to make them vulnerable, make you vulnerable, engage your imagination the way their imaginations are engaged, and to really try to close that gap between their experience and you, as the reader, comfortably stateside.

NINA MOINI: Well, Professor Vernon, thank you so much for stopping by and telling us about this biography. I would love to read it. Thank you.

ALEX VERNON: Thank you for having me. It's been fun.

NINA MOINI: That was Alex Vernon, the author of Peace is a Shy Thing, The Life and Art of Tim O'Brien.