St. Paul's ‘The Catholic Guy’ says Pope Francis navigated the ‘uncomfortable middle’

[MUSIC PLAYING] NINA MOINI: Just yesterday, Pope Francis appeared in St. Peter's Square to bless thousands of people on Easter Sunday. A day later, thousands are gathering there again, this time to mourn his death. The Pope died early this morning at the age of 88, the first non-European in centuries to lead the church. Pope Francis is being remembered for his willingness to discuss contemporary social issues, from Native boarding schools and US immigration policy to the environment and technology.

He was one of the most popular popes in decades, but he also faced criticism from progressives for not pushing the church far enough on women's and LGBTQ+ rights. Mourners are also gathering at the Cathedral of St. Paul this morning for a special mass getting underway right now. Our Mark Zdechlik has been at the cathedral all morning talking to people. He joins us now from there. Thanks for being with us, Mark.

MARK ZDECHLIK: You're welcome. Good afternoon, Nina.

NINA MOINI: Good afternoon. Tell us a little bit about what you're seeing. Have a lot of people shown up?

MARK ZDECHLIK: Yeah. Mourners have been trickling in and out of here all morning. It's really picked up in the last hour. The parking lot across the street from the cathedral is full, and a lot of the street parking is accounted for. Inside the sanctuary, the flowers are still there from Easter Sunday, and at the front of the sanctuary is a picture of Pope Francis.

NINA MOINI: What have people been saying when you're talking to them?

MARK ZDECHLIK: Most of the people I've approached here have just politely asked to be kind of left alone and just to have a little bit of a privacy. But I did talk with a gentleman named Dale Watt. He lives here in St. Paul on Summit Hill, very near the cathedral, and he said that he felt compelled to come by and just sit and think for a minute, which is what he did.

DALE WATT: I'm not a Catholic, but I thought he was someone worth remembering and someone worth thinking about his care for everyone.

MARK ZDECHLIK: Nina, Dale Watt said he was particularly impressed with Pope Francis's humility.

DALE WATT: He led a very large and powerful and rich organization, but he never showed his lack of care or concern for the very least among us. Thursday, he went to see a group of inmates in Rome, and I remember him doing that towards the start of his papacy and throughout it. And if there's people who are more marginalized than people who are in prison, society doesn't care about them. They are people who commit crimes against society, and we lock him up and try to put them out of our minds. But they're people, too, and he never forgot that.

NINA MOINI: People mourning there in St. Paul-- yeah, go ahead.

MARK ZDECHLIK: That's certainly sentiment being expressed by many people all over the world today, referencing Pope Francis' humility.

NINA MOINI: Yeah, Mark. And so I understand this was kind of-- everyone put this together today at noon. People are showing up from all over the place, like you mentioned, and talked to some people. But I understand this is going to be the start now of some events over the next several days. Can you tell folks what to expect?

MARK ZDECHLIK: Yeah. There will be nine days of official mourning with the services that all kinds of different religious institutions, facilities, like the cathedral here. After the service, the Archbishop Bernard Hebda is going to talk to us a little bit, us being members of the media, about his memories and thoughts of Pope Francis. And just see a lot going on in the next several days, really, more than a week of activity.

NINA MOINI: Yeah. And we know you'll continue reporting on this-- all of this, of course, just happening. And we'll look forward to more of your reporting on All Things Considered, starting at three. Thanks, Mark.

MARK ZDECHLIK: You're welcome, Nina.

NINA MOINI: That was MPR News reporter Mark Zdechlik live for us at the Cathedral of St. Paul. Now, Pope Francis this was known as a change maker in the Catholic Church as the first Latin American Jesuit to serve in the role in centuries. He joined the Vatican after decades of pretty conservative leadership.

It was during a moment of crisis in the church after a shortage of priests, sex abuse scandals, and falling attendance. Here to reflect on his legacy is Lino Rulli. Lino is the host of the Sirius XM show called The Catholic Guy. He's based in St. Paul. Thank you so much for joining the show this afternoon, Lino.

LINO RULLI: Thank you very much for having me. Love it.

NINA MOINI: So I don't know if you heard. Our reporter Mark Zdechlik there was just out and about talking to people, and this word of humility continues to come up. And it's interesting that we have you on the show, because you practice humility in a certain way, too, through comedy and being able to laugh at yourself. But I'm curious to know your initial reactions today.

LINO RULLI: I mean, my initial reaction was complete shock. Because if you would have told me six weeks ago when the Pope was in the hospital that he died, I was mentally prepared for it, but the reality was he recovered from double pneumonia, it seemed. He was back at the Vatican. He was making appearances on nearly a daily basis.

He had just met with Vice President JD Vance. He had just done his Easter blessing. I would have thought maybe in a year or two, you would have given me the sad news. But to have gotten-- I got all these texts and emails this morning and phone calls and everything, and I'm like, wait. That's not even possible, is it? So I think most of the Catholic world, maybe the rest of the world as well, is in a little bit of shock.

NINA MOINI: Yeah. Because he was out and about among people yesterday despite having been sick for a while. You're right. And so I heard that you actually met the Pope four times. Can you tell us a little bit about what those experiences were like?

LINO RULLI: Sure. Well, there's a real act of humility, as he clearly is not meeting with anybody important, because he met with me for four times.

[LAUGHTER]

So yeah, he had a lot of free time on his hands as Pope. He had a really, really-- he had a great sense of humor. So the second opportunity I had to meet the Holy Father was through a priest friend of mine who was a priest friend of the Pope. And it's weird to say the Pope has friends, but the Pope has friends. And it was with my then fiance. She's now my wife. And I had planned to ask the Pope-- in Italian, this is. But I had planned to say, we're getting engaged, and I'm going to be a big burden in this woman's life. Would you pray for her?

And I said that to him, and then he started laughing. And he looked at my fiance, and he goes, marrying him? It's like you're going to be going to prison. He doesn't know me. He just picked up that would be the right thing to say. And when I also then said, and Holy Father, I pray for you every day. He said-- also all in Italian.

But he said, do you pray for me, or do you pray against me? So he had a good sense of humor, but the reality was he also had an awareness of-- he was never intended to be a controversial figure in the least, but he understood, like any leader, he may have people who are praying for him, and he might have people who are praying against him. So I thought that was actually very telling. He told a good, solid joke, but there was actually something telling behind it.

NINA MOINI: So on your show on Sirius XM, you talk about a variety of topics. And we know that religion, it's just such a personal experience for people. But then there are so many things that are shared. And I wonder if from your perspective, if you viewed this Pope as the future of the church? Or where does he fall for you culturally?

LINO RULLI: Yeah, absolutely. The future of the church, insofar as I can see with a lot of people, he had critics on both the right and the left, and it's not as if the church needs to be a political institution. But this is the way people understand things is right or left or conservative or liberal. And for the Pope, for his conservative critics, he went too far. And for his liberal critics, he didn't go far enough.

And I think that very uncomfortable middle is exactly where he loved being and wanted to be, and I think that uncomfortable middle is the only place the church can be. It's fitting that when the Pope would say something, he'd be critical-- excuse me. He'd be criticized, but it depended what he said. He was not always criticized by the right or the left. He was criticized by people based on, well, you're not saying what I want you to say. That's the only place the church really can be, especially going forward.

NINA MOINI: And if you think about the 12 years that he served as Pope, many things have changed, technologically-- COVID happened. So many things have happened. And it did seem as though this Pope did not shy away from topics that people may find to be controversial, like you alluded to, politically or otherwise. Is it too soon, do you feel, to talk about what is next for the church? And then what would you be looking for in the next Pope?

LINO RULLI: I mean, it's not too soon. It's, of course, a little shocking. It's the equivalent of your grandfather dying and asking, what's in the will? But everybody wants to know. Just out of curiosity, what might be in the will, just so I know what my future plans are? I mean, the fact of the matter is what differentiates this death versus another death in a family-- and it feels like a family member. He's called the Holy Father-- is you don't go get another grandpa, or you don't get another dad.

But in this case, the Pope has died, but the church cannot be rudderless. We are now Popeless, but we cannot just be rudderless. And so the fact of the matter is, the Cardinals of the Catholic Church are the ones who will soon be discussing amongst themselves, well, what does the church need? And not a question of politicking, insofar as, you know who would be good is me, or you know who would be good is not him, but actually asking, well, what might God be saying here?

What were the strengths of this Pope? What were the weaknesses of this Pope? And to say weakness is not a criticism. To say weakness is he's a human being. That means he would be very strong in certain senses, and certain places, maybe he'd be a little weaker, like all of us have strengths and weaknesses.

So it's not too early to say, well, I think without a doubt, the church needs to continue to be the voice for the immigrant. The church needs to be the voice for the poor. The church needs to be the voice for, well, Jesus, because those are the things Jesus talked about. And they're going to be controversial, because not everybody's going to agree on how to handle people. And let's not forget, that's what they are is people.

And what is the best way to take care of people made in the image and likeness of God? The church must, because Jesus insisted, these are the conversations that need to be had. What direction in terms of conservative or liberal? I think that's just the way we will necessarily perceive it, even if it's not the way it's meant to be.

NINA MOINI: So moving forward in the days ahead, what does your show or your content look like? What are you thinking about right now. Because you are obviously a really funny person, but there are also all of these serious things that are going on, and so you have to be really thoughtful about it, which it seems like you really are. But what are you thinking of moving forward for what you're going to be able to provide for all your listeners?

LINO RULLI: So I coincidentally have a trip for tomorrow planned to Rome, and so I will be in Rome starting tomorrow doing radio. I happened to be there. But the fact of the matter is the death of a Pope is really not that different than the death of any of our family or friends. And while we experience the loss, and we feel the loss, part of my job on the radio, especially if Christianity is to be true-- and I'm not suggesting that everybody believes it to be true.

But if Christianity is true, then what happened yesterday was Jesus came back from the dead. And by coming back from the dead, if that is true, he gave his followers the chance to have everlasting life. If you're not excited and happy and joyful about that, you're pretty, as Pope Francis would call you, sour puss Christian. And he thought there was just too many of those who were already Christian in name, but always had a sour puss on their face and were not celebrating life.

And that was something the Pope used to talk about, but that I'd be talking about on my show today and all this week is if Christianity is true, then the Pope has gone back to the father's house. He has gone back to God the father's house. There's joy in that, and the suffering of the physical pain of his life is over.

NINA MOINI: Lino Rulli, thank you so much for sharing your time with us this afternoon and your perspective. I really appreciate it. All the best to you in your travels coming up.

LINO RULLI: Thanks very much. It was great being here.

NINA MOINI: That was Lino Rulli, the host of the Sirius XM radio show, The Catholic Guy.