Amazon data center planned for Minnesota sparks environmental debate

NINA MOINI: Minnesota's rules on power consumption are being put to the test after a clash with the tech giant Amazon. The company has plans to build a data center in Becker, Minnesota. A "dater" center-- or data center, rather, is a physical location that stores computers and equipment. Large companies like Amazon use these data centers to compute enormous amounts of information. And those computers, well, they require a lot of energy to run. State utility regulators are pumping the brakes on the Becker Center.

Here to explain the environmental implications of the issue is Jessica Hellman. She's the Executive Director of the University of Minnesota's Institute on the Environment. Jessica, thanks for joining us this afternoon.

JESSICA HELLMAN: Well, thanks for having me.

NINA MOINI: So data centers, again, for these huge companies like Amazon, some people might not be familiar with them, maybe if they don't have one in their community. Would you mind explaining, for starters, what these data centers do, why they're controversial?

JESSICA HELLMAN: Well, a data center is basically-- we can think of it as a big set of computers that are storing the information that we use for a bunch of cloud services. Of course, we expect these data centers to be growing as our use of AI increases. But for the purposes of this particular issue, you can think of them as big power consumers. So they're sitting on the grid. In this case, the issue is where their immediate power demand would come from to keep those computers on and keep that data stored and keep delivering those cloud computing services that we're all using.

NINA MOINI: Yeah. Would you talk a little bit more about why it's controversial? Because I've reported on openings of data centers, or so and so big corporation's going to open a data center here. And a lot of times, people are excited because they think, hey, this is going to bring a ton of jobs to the area. It could really revitalize the area. What is at the crux of the issue for this one specifically?

JESSICA HELLMAN: Well, and also historically, in the recent past, the tech industry has been really committed to using renewable power as a way to make sure-- to run these data centers. So they are great economic opportunities. They're controversial-- or the issue is maybe more nuanced. Maybe controversial is a little bit aggressive way of talking about it. But it's a big issue. It's an issue in the grand sense, which is, power demand for this kind of cloud computing and for the growing demand for AI, this is an entirely new technology that needs a lot of electricity. So meeting that global demand is a major issue.

What kind of power will we use to supply this brand new energetic demand? And can we do that while also meeting our intention to reduce greenhouse gas emissions? And then you can make that issue highly localized. Now you have an actual data center that goes in an actual state that's connected to actual power. And it becomes very concrete. So that data center and the fact that we put it in the state of Minnesota means that we would like that data center to conform to our state ambitions around greenhouse gas emission reductions. So how it's powered in our state, locally, on our grid is important to us.

It's also a larger question about how these data centers everywhere are going to be powered, and if they will contribute to, or interfere with, our intent to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

NINA MOINI: Yeah. And I had this in my notes that might give people some perspective that I found really interesting. So a large data center can use as much energy as a power plant serving 100,000 homes. So, I mean, it seems pretty sizable. Do you have an idea for what Amazon is using to get power for its data centers?

JESSICA HELLMAN: I don't know, actually, this particular one. But it is true that these data centers are major power consumers. And they typically are making individual arrangements for the-- they're making specific power plans, power purchase plans, where that individual data center secures its energy source because it needs to be on all the time. And they are often plugged into central locations in the grid because they demand so much power. And they can-- because they're making these purchase agreements for power, they really can negotiate some interesting renewable energy sources, for example. So they can be a source of demand that can help structure our supply and push us to renewable energy.

The particular sort of controversial nature of this is, one, how much energy it demands and whether it will interfere, and then also the issue of how they will deal with emergency situations or when the main power that they're using goes down or goes offline. They need to be able to provide power all the time. And so they're proposing a large number of diesel backups.

NINA MOINI: Right. So 250 backup diesel generators is what Amazon is saying, hey, we need this to be able to keep going in emergency cases. And the Minnesota Public Utilities Commission says Amazon really needs to prove that is worthwhile. So why would the company need those generators, do you think? And then, how much energy would they take up?

JESSICA HELLMAN: Well, when we look to our power grid and power sources, there are several things that we're asking that electricity grid to do for all of us, even our individual homeowners. We expect it to be environmentally responsible. And we look to regulation and the Public Utilities Commission to enforce that responsibility. We don't want polluting energy sources for air quality reasons and also for greenhouse gas emissions. Electricity production is a major source of greenhouse gas emissions. So we look to them for environmental responsibility.

Of course, we also care about the cost and the price. Each of us wants to keep our energy costs low. And then the third pillar is, we look to reliability. When we flip that light switch, we expect the power to come on. Actually, in fact, the US Is kind of medium-ranking in how reliable its power is. But that's especially important for these data centers. They need the power to be on all the time. So they want to put online something they know will be able to reliably produce that power, even if they rarely use it. Even if, the vast majority of the time, they might be consuming renewable power, in an emergency, they want to be able to turn on these backup sources.

And it's hard to anticipate how much any entity might use that backup source. It's just simply that, as states are grappling with reducing their greenhouse gas emissions, they want to be able to address the main source of power. But we also want to be able to speak to these backup sources. We want to be able to build renewable or resilient sources of energy that stay on and can also supply that emergency backup, so that we're not going back and relying on natural gas, which is a fossil fuel, as our backup source.

That's the big question. Do we need to be using-- do we need to still rely on and build this infrastructure? In this case a private company building its own infrastructure, do we need to be doing that with fossil energy, or can we do alternative sources? In the state of Minnesota, we said we wanted to look to non-fossil-based backup generation.

NINA MOINI: Yeah. I was going to ask, what are some of the alternatives, then, that they could look into? And are those more pricey?

JESSICA HELLMAN: Well, in the end, the way we're going to provide a resilient electricity system where the power stays on even in the event of emergency is going to be about managing that grid. It's going to be about knowing where the power is coming from and where the power is being demanded and moving energy and storing energy in that grid. So it's really kind of a systems engineering problem, and a solvable systems engineering problem. And you have to pay attention to these little gaps in supply and make sure that those are smoothed over.

In the particular instance of one facility wanting to supply and secure its own energy, it's slightly different than thinking about the whole system. But this issue of being able to supply consistent, renewable energy sources is the important one. Batteries are going to be a very important component. So instead of turning on a generator, storing power somewhere in the grid or nearby in a battery, and then deploying that battery-stored energy in an emergency. And then even that is really interesting, because there are batteries that can supply energy on a short time horizon. And there are different kinds of batteries that supply energy on a longer time horizon.

So building that into the system is what is in the interest of all of us. And how navigating these different sources of energy and building the electric grid that is-- that prioritizes renewable energy is what we're trying to accomplish.

NINA MOINI: So there are talks at the state level. Lawmakers, Republicans, recently advanced a bill that would change state law to allow for Amazon to go ahead with the center as they planned it. So as lawmakers are weighing the future of the laws around this and regulation, what do you think the future of regulation around these data centers would entail? Or what is your hope for that, I guess?

JESSICA HELLMAN: Well, it is complicated. We talk about this notion of an energy transition. We are living in an energy transition. We burned coal and other kinds of fossil fuels historically. That's how we built our economy and powered our economy. And in the future, we're going to have clean sources of energy. And navigating between those two worlds is complicated.

NINA MOINI: Yeah.

JESSICA HELLMAN: I think it benefits all of us to get informed and participate and pay attention to things like electricity generation and these big energy demands that are coming into our market, and asking, how does that private company affect the energy availability for all of us that are connected to that grid. But thoughtfully and carefully navigating from point A the old economy, to point B, the new economy, is going to require a lot of creative thinking, a lot of new technology, and regulation that's in conversation with that new technology.

So I'm not a policymaker. That's not my job. But if I were asking questions, I'd really be interested to think about, how do we take that long view. What kinds of technology is deployable? Do we need to be investing in that fossil energy, if there's things that are coming online that are alternatives? These are the kinds of questions that regulators and people in the energy industry are asking right now and Amazon will have to figure out in each one of these venues.

NINA MOINI: Yeah, depending on where they are. A lot being considered. Jessica, thank you so much for coming on and breaking this down for us. I really appreciate it.

JESSICA HELLMAN: Well, thank you. It's been a pleasure chatting with you.

NINA MOINI: That was Jessica Hellman, the Executive Director of the University of Minnesota's Institute on the Environment.